Episode 13: Interview with Dr. Steve Gangemi

Do you ever feel like you need more than what conventional medicine can offer? Have you considered natural medicine? In today's interview with Dr. Steve Gangemi he shares his approach to using natural medicine as well as some great tips for all.

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Show Notes:

In this episode, our guest, a renowned healthcare practitioner, provides invaluable insights into the role of vitamins A, D, and zinc in immune system strengthening. He discusses how each vitamin affects our health and offers advice on the best ways to take these vitamins for optimal absorption. The episode concludes with an introduction to his "Systems Healthcare" training program for other practitioners, a hands-on approach that interlinks various body systems.

1. Vitamin A: Contrary to popular belief, most fruits and vegetables provide betacarotene, not vitamin A. The body must convert betacarotene into vitamin A. A deficiency in vitamin A, obtained mainly from animal products, can affect the immune system.

2. Vitamin D: The importance of vitamin D, especially during the "Vitamin D winter" (November to late March in regions like North Carolina), is highlighted. During this period, the sun's angle prevents vitamin D synthesis, emphasizing the need for supplementation.

3. Zinc: Zinc plays a pivotal role in our immune system, sugar processing, and hormone regulation. It significantly affects progesterone levels in women and testosterone levels in men.

4. Vitamin Intake Advice: Vitamins A and D are best absorbed when consumed with meals containing fat. Our guest warns against pharmaceutical-grade Vitamin D2, stating that humans can only absorb Vitamin D3.

5. Systems Healthcare Training: An introduction to the guest's training program, "Systems Healthcare", was given. It's ideal for hands-on practitioners like chiropractors or osteopaths and involves manual muscle testing.

6. Supplement Intake Guidelines: The guest underscores that supplement intake shouldn't cause nausea. If nausea does occur, it may indicate either an overly high dosage or a reaction to a particular supplement.

7. Guest Websites: To learn more about the guest's work, visit his three websites (included in the episode description) covering health, fitness, and life; natural injury treatment and prevention for athletes, and his Systems Healthcare website, The Natural Healthcare Center in Chapel Hill.

Key Takeaways:

• Understanding Vitamins: A lack of vitamin A can significantly impact the immune system. Contrary to popular belief, we don't get vitamin A from fruits and vegetables, but rather from animal products.

• The Importance of Vitamin D: Vitamin D is crucial for immune health, especially during the "Vitamin D winter," when the angle of the sun prevents its synthesis. During these months, vitamin D supplementation is essential.

• The Role of Zinc: Zinc is crucial in the body, playing roles in the immune system, sugar processing, hormone regulation, and more.

• Optimal Vitamin Intake: Vitamins A and D are best absorbed when taken with meals containing fats. Moreover, pharmaceutical-grade Vitamin D2 is not absorbable by humans; we need Vitamin D3.

• Systems Healthcare Training: This innovative approach to health focuses on the interconnectedness of body systems and is aimed at hands-on practitioners like chiropractors or osteopaths.

• Proper Supplement Intake: If your supplements make you nauseous, it could indicate that the dosage is too high or that you're reacting to something in the supplement.

• Learning Opportunities: Interested parties can learn more from the guest's websites that cover different aspects of health, fitness, and life, natural injury treatment and prevention for athletes, and his innovative approach to healthcare.

Transcript:

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Better Than a Pill Today. I am so excited to have Dr. Steve Gangemi here with us. And Steve is a natural medicine doctor and the founder of Systems Healthcare, which is located in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. So welcome, Steve, and thank you so much for being here today. Hey, Cari, good to be here. Thanks for having me on the show.

So you are a natural medicine doctor, and I just wanted to explain a little bit of exactly what that is and how long you've been doing your work. Sure. So basically I practice holistic type of therapies. The majority of my work is what's known as applied kinesiology, which is a way of evaluating the human body through neurological types of muscle testing. So we help to understand what's going on with a patient's ailments using certain techniques and then offer remedies of a natural method, meaning certain reflex points throughout the body.

Maybe chiropractic adjustments or myofascial points, like trigger points or myofascial release points. Acupuncture meridian points, sometimes emotional type of therapies and a lot of nutrition and dietary and exercise type changes. Is that kind of it in a nutshell. So, yeah, I've been doing this for actually just over 25 years now. Wow, that's awesome.

And if I just share a little bit about how I found you. In 2021, I was hit hard with a diagnosis of tendinosis in my wrist and I had a lump in my thyroid. And after an FNA biopsy, it turned out to be non cancerous. And I intuitively knew that I needed to do more to find out what was going on than what conventional medicine could offer. And I began studying and reading different people's work, but I really wasn't getting anywhere.

And a friend of mine who had been mentioning your name and your center for years and spoke very highly of the work you did with her daughter and family was on my mind, and I saw her and I decided to make an appointment. So I began working with Dr. Shuler, who is a trained systems healthcare doctor at Dr. Gangemi’s center here. And this past December, Dr. Shuler. And by the way, that's because I wasn't able to get in with Dr. Gangemi. He has an extensive waitlist.

But Dr. Shuler was able to diagnose me with Hashimoto's, an autoimmune disorder, and I had no idea that I even had that. And he took me off gluten. I found out I was allergic to it. It was triggering a reaction in my own body, and the tendinosis in my wrist healed. And as a pain free movement coach and I've had a lot of success helping people overcome pain through movement. This was powerful, extremely powerful, that just one ingredient, one thing in my diet could cause this pain to go away.

So I am very motivated to keep learning more. And I feel extremely lucky myself that I was able to catch this early enough. I'm very curious by nature, and I want to understand, I want to learn as much as I can when it comes to health and wellness. So I know during my sessions, I always ask Dr. Shuler a lot of questions and he is excellent. He always answers them.

And he has mentioned that you use a method and he uses a method called Applied Kinesiology, as well as a method that you created. And I would love if you could share a little bit more about this type of work because I just want people to know that it's an option.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great story you have, and in your situation only because I know a little bit about your health from Dr. Shuler. He really diagnosed that through laboratory work. But the indication to do that laboratory work to I believe he had a high thyroid peroxidase level or one of the antibodies that is typically elevated with Hashimoto's when you have a thyroid type condition like that, an autoimmune type condition. But he did that through what he saw based off your history and evaluating you with the muscle testing and the various techniques that we use. And then he was able to have an indication for further blood work or further some laboratory work, which then obviously gave you that diagnosis. So that's great to hear.

So, yeah, applied Kinesiology, basically the gist of that AK was founded by a chiropractor named George Goodheart, dr. George Goodheart. He was up in Michigan, and this was right around 1964. So it's not a very old technique compared to many other therapies like acupuncture and even trigger point therapy and those sorts of things, of course.

So basically, Applied Kinesiology is a diagnostic system. So that's important people to understand. It's not a system of a therapy. So we utilize other therapies, as I mentioned, typically taken from many other types of healing, natural healing practices, whether that be acupuncture or most of us use acupressure techniques or myofascial points and your diet, nutrition, chiropractic techniques, that sort of thing.

So it's a diagnostic system that's used to evaluate a person's, what we call the triad of health. So if you think of it like a triangle, structural, chemical and emotional type of health. So we use muscle testing as our standard method of diagnosis with the gist there being that every muscle in your body is somewhat linked to organs in your body. So, for example, practitioners have linked your triceps and your latissimus muscles, so your back muscles and the muscles on the back of your arm to your pancreas.

So if someone has a muscle inhibition, which kind of like quote unquote, is a weakness, a neurological weakness, not a weakness from you not exercising enough or being weak in that area, but if you have a muscle that's not functioning properly in those areas, it could be an indication that your pancreas is not functioning well. Maybe you're not metabolizing glucose too well. Maybe your insulin levels are off you're hypoglycemic you're maybe prediabetic or diabetic, that sort of thing.

So we use specific types of muscle testing to help us evaluate and understand what is going on with that patient through certain challenges like reflex points on the body or challenging with various offenders, like having somebody maybe taste sugar and see how those muscles respond to that sort of challenge to those muscles. In other words, how do those muscles respond to something that may stress the organ out? Sugar in the pancreas, of course, is a pretty good example.

Or maybe how something then even facilitates those muscles. So a common nutrient, say, that helps with the pancreas is something like zinc because zinc is needed for insulin metabolism and that sort of thing. So we could have someone taste some zinc if those muscles are inhibited and not functioning properly, to see if they actually need some zinc because they're tasting the zinc through a gustatory challenge.

In other words, when you taste something, even though it might not be in your system right away, your brain knows it's there. I always use the analogy, like, if you smell something and it sort of makes you nauseous right away or you might start salivating so your brain knows it's there through these neurological pathways. And that could actually facilitate or make those weak muscles strong, at least to understand what a person might need in terms of a testing procedure.  And then in terms of treating a person with these conditions, it really depends on the person, whether it's a cranial technique or a myofascial point or acupressure, nutrition or lifestyle, dietary stress, sleep changes. It really depends on what that type of practitioner is skilled in and what their interest is, of course, or their expertise is and how they choose to best approach that condition.

That's very helpful. I know I'm only one example, and I'm just curious what are some of the most common conditions that you're treating? So in our practice, it's kind of a wide variety. We're really like a family type practice. I mean, I was treating a three and a half week old baby the other day who was just having some GI issues. So we're able to do that through just like, feeling certain things on the baby's body, of course, because babies can't muscle test very well. But through certain therapy we see a lot of people today with immune system conditions. A lot of weird viruses going around, of course.

Our practice is usually seeing things like that whether someone's chronically getting sick or they've got autoimmune diseases like your issue, either they come to us for a natural approach to an approach to an autoimmune issue or they don't know why they're having an issue, whether that be hashimoto's or crohn's or whatever the case may be. So we see a good bit of that and we see a lot of hormonal issues in our practice.

Like typical thyroid conditions are very common with women with cyclical issues. In other words, I typically see several times a year women who are having fertility issues or PMS, bad PMS or postmenopausal type hot flashes, sweats, that sort of thing. And then of course, a lot of GI issues isn't probably the third biggest part of our practice.

People with just bloating or not digesting food, well, allergy symptoms may be related to that. And then a lot of typical sort of structural issues that aren't getting resolved elsewhere typically is when people come to us like the headaches or the weird back pain that comes and goes, or chronic back pain or knee issues from injuries.

We're pretty good at understanding where pain that comes out of nowhere comes from when all of a sudden your sort of back goes out and how that can be related not just to your back, but maybe because of muscle organ relationships in your body. Maybe a digestive issue can be causing your back pain or your knee issue could be causing from your adrenal glands or in your case, was it your wrists coming from your thyroid, right, right.

Yeah. So there you go. So we can see these correlations on how you can have one system in your body not functioning properly and your thyroid can be off, causing you to have wrist pain where someone else's thyroid can be resulting in them maybe with sleep issues or maybe they have shoulder pain where you have wrist pain. So you can start to understand connections in the body and especially when all of a sudden pain comes out of nowhere and someone is just told, oh, that's common, you're getting old, or you just stood up wrong or you moved wrong, that's why you pulled that muscle.

But usually there's a reason behind why something maybe perhaps suddenly occurs in your body or even gradually. And it's not typically just because you're old now or something like that. Yeah. So that's awesome. And it's so nice to actually have answers for that because the orthopedic physician that diagnosed me with the tendinosis, when I asked him, what do you think the cause is? He said to me, well, I'm just going to guess it's because you're over 40. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Okay, well, thanks a lot. Yeah. It's only downhill from there, right?

You definitely might have be more susceptible to things as you get older, but yeah, unfortunately the age excuse is often a reason or the diagnosis given to so many people today. Right, right. 100%. And it's just you have to be so proactive and that's exactly why you're on here today, because there are other solutions or other things going on that we just don't know about. And I'm just curious because we talk about inflammation. What are your thoughts on inflammation and its involvement with the things that you're treating?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, we get that one a lot, especially so many people today. Obviously you have Google to research everything and the world of podcasts and everybody's different views on things. I kind of say inflammation is like stress. That you can make a case that everything in your body is resultant from stress to some degree, right? Or pretty much any, I'll say disease process. Not that everything should be viewed as a disease, but let's say anything that's not working great in your body at a given time probably has some inflammation to some degree.

It doesn't mean you have to have this giant area of swelling in your body. You just might have some cellular inflammation. And I don't want your listeners or of course you to think that I don't agree with that. I mean, there is always some inflammation going on, but I think it's a little bit overkill and kind of pigeonholed on how everybody just wants to talk about inflammation and how to lower inflammation. It's important.

But one, you need inflammation to heal your body. If you actually don't have inflammation when you become injured to a certain degree, inflammation that is within the expectations of the injury. So in other words, if you hurt yourself, your body needs a certain amount of inflammation to help heal. If it doesn't, you're not going to heal it very well.

Unfortunately, most people are already over inflamed or their inflammatory systems don't know how to shut down or calm back down once they're injured. So they just have this chronic inflammatory level for so long. And then they typically go to the anti inflammatories like the NSAIDs, right, the naproxins, the aspirins, the ibuprofens. Of course, those non sterile anti inflammatory drugs where even though they might have helped temporarily, the end result of that is typically other inflammatory pathways in their body that then become more apparent and actually can even be more inflammatory than those ones that they're originally trying to inhibit.

So you can actually increase inflammation over time by taking anti inflammatories. I'm all for obviously fish oil. And what patient today doesn't ask me about curcumin or Turmeric? It's almost a little nutty. Who doesn't take those today? And they all have their place.

I personally think they're I guess I'll say it this way too. You know something, you could talk about inflammation forever, but I think sometimes people just miss the big picture of if you want to really deal, look at the big idea of your diet. For example, to reduce inflammation, like eat less sugar, exercise moderately to a certain extent, reduce stress, sleep better. These lifestyle changes are always going to be more important than you just going buying some Turmeric or taking some ginger or resveratrol, which is a red wine extract or fish oil.

I mean, they all have their place at certain times we use them in the office, but we're concerned with the overall picture of someone you can never out supplement a bad diet or a bad lifestyle. Right. You just can't take some fish oil and eat your Krispy Kreme donut with it.

Right, that 100% makes sense. That's well said. And if you had to give somebody or just curious if people listening today some recommendations on what are some things that people should be including in their diet that could help them?

Well, that's easy to answer, Cari, because if anybody knows me, they know my favorite food is grass fed butter. Okay? I think it's at least not as crazy ideas when I would tout that message 10-15 years ago. But the fats in grass fed animals, meaning beef, butter, of course, dairy products, grass fed organic dairy products, red meat and even like pasture raised egg yolks, chicken, duck, whatever, egg yolks you eat, the amount of fats in there or the type of fats in there is nice because they're inflammatory type of controlling fats.

You need them to build your brain. I mean, our brains are actually not EPA fish oil fats. It's a lot of DHA, which is, yes, part of fish oil, but it's also highly apparent in grass fed beef and egg yolks loaded with DHA and of course something called arachidonic acid, which is only found in mammals. You can't get arachidonic acid. You'll see, that abbreviation is AA. You can't get that type of fat in a non living, a non animal type product, I should say.

In other words, you can't get that in avocado or coconut or olive oil. These are all important fats. But what you get in terms of brain like cognitive functioning, type of fats, and fats for your hormones, and fats for your immune system and fats for your nervous system, right. Fats for your spine and your nerve system conduction and all these things, it's really arachidonic acid and these long chain what we know as saturated type fats.

But these are healthy fats that have for so many years have been unfortunately mislabeled as cholesterol forming and cholesterol containing type of nutritional foods that only increase inflammation. But they actually do the opposite when someone's consuming them in a grass fed type of product, especially when they're not eating a lot of sugar. So the benefits of grass fed arachidonic acid type foods, meaning dairy and was an animal, or is an animal, as I tell my patients, is astounding. And I think that's the most important food someone could be containing have in their diet, whether that's grass fed butter or grass fed beef or grass fed dairy, especially like raw milk, would be way more important not to. Undermine fish on those sorts of things. But way more important than those foods like olive oil and coconut oil, that you still need in your diet. But we tend to forget about the butter fats.

Oh, yeah, that is excellent information. And actually in working with Dr. Shuler. I started to incorporate grass fed butter. Had no idea. That is excellent. And just so people understand, there is a difference, let's say, between eating just plain butter and grass fed butter.

Yes, absolutely. Not only is there a difference, absolutely. One can be very harmful to you. I mean, a hamburger from McDonald's, even without the bun, can be very inflammatory to you. But a grass fed beef from your local farmer can have amazing healing effects. So it's really what the animal ate and how it was raised, right? Yes. That's great. So grass fed.

Now, what about supplements? Is there anything that you would recommend or could recommend just for the average person in general to help them and or their immune system? I'm just curious.

Yeah, the nice thing about what we do in the office is we like to see exactly what somebody needs as a nutrient. Because you might do better with vitamin D for your immune system. I might do better with vitamin A, which actually you can get a lot of that in butter and someone else might their immune system might be improved by zinc. So that's definitely hard to say. But of course, not everybody has access to people like us.

So I would say those ones, actually, that I didn't pick those randomly today. We usually tell people because of immune system issues and all the weird viruses and a lot of people being more sick than what they I would say they would even three or five years ago, especially when I started practice 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I would say that ad and zinc are, like, at the top of our list. I think A is really undervalued.

Most people know about D. We see a lot of patients come in with vitamin D already, but vitamin A I think, is, and I mean actual vitamin A, because a lot of people think they get vitamin A from vegetables and fruits. But you really don't. You get betacarotene. And that's not the same thing. You have to convert betacarotene to vitamin A. And that's, I think it's something like 8% of your betacarotene. Eight meaning 8.0 is converted to vitamin A.

So you actually don't really get vitamin A if you're not eating animal products, if you're not eating grass fed dairy and beef and that sort of stuff. And of course, even some fish where you get some A and D naturally wild caught, of course, not farm raised. I mean, you're probably going to be deficient in vitamin A, which is huge for the immune system. They say in paleo times, people back then, in those years, they'd get like 50,000 IUs of vitamin A-A-A day and 10,000 IUs of vitamin D.

So, like, this pretty significant five to one ratio. And today we see people coming and taking the typical, like five, 6000 I use a vitamin D a day. With all the news out there, how to improves your immune system, which is true, but very rarely do I see somebody coming in actually taking vitamin A unless it was in their multi. So I would say vitamin A is we use a lot of vitamin A with really good results.

And yeah, that's something I would consider people to look into more. I think we were all brought up, and a lot of patients will sometimes question, can't you become toxic in that? Or vitamin A can cause all these issues. I mean, that's with massive amounts of vitamin A, like 100,000 I use for multiple days. And you would be having issues before you became gravely ill, meaning headaches, fatigue, lots of these issues before you, all of it.

In other words, vitamin A is really nothing to be super scared of. Actually, that was the first treatment for measles back in the early 1900. They would give babies. So these small little babies think of a baby, 15 pounds maybe, if not more or less than that, and they would give a baby at 100,000 I use 100,000 I use of vitamin A for two to three days to essentially cure measles.

Yeah, I mean, it's a massive amount of vitamin A, but it did its job. So when I give somebody 10,000 or 20,000, I use a vitamin A a day, and they're like, oh, is that okay for me? And it's a full grown 200 pound man. I think you'll be okay. Yeah, that's good to know. So we've got vitamin A, and you also said vitamin D and zinc would be two other yeah.

I think zinc levels are pretty depleted today. Of course, vitamin D in the winter. And here in North Carolina, we just came out of what's known as our vitamin D winter, which means from November, I think we're midish November. And last week of March is what's considered our vitamin D winter, which even if you're out in the sun with your belly and abdomen or chest exposed, where you absorb most of the vitamin D or from the UVB rays. You actually don't get vitamin D from our sun over the winter at the time. It's based off the angle of the sun.

Yeah, I mean, it's a massive amount of vitamin A, but it did its job. So when I give somebody 10,000 or 20,000, I use a vitamin A a day, and they're like, oh, is that okay for me? And it's a full grown 200 pound man. I think you'll be okay. Yeah, that's good to know. So we've got vitamin A, and you also said vitamin D and zinc would be two other yeah.

I think zinc levels are pretty depleted today. Of course, vitamin D in the winter. And here in North Carolina, we just came out of what's known as our vitamin D winter, which means from November, I think we're midish November. And last week of March is what's considered our vitamin D winter, which even if you're out in the sun with your belly and abdomen or chest exposed, where you absorb most of the vitamin D or from the UVB rays. You actually don't get vitamin D from our sun over the winter at the time. It's based off the angle of the sun.

So we now are able to obtain vitamin D from being outside from now until late October or so. That's why you see more northern areas. Even on a sunny day, they have obviously a much longer vitamin D winter or shorter time period where they obtain vitamin D. So for a lot of people, that supplementation helps with that through those times of the year.

And I would say zinc is huge for your immune system for so many reasons. It helps improve what's called your T regulatory cells, which help monitor and guide your immune system. Of course, it's big with processing sugar and hormones. For women, it actually helps you with progesterone levels. For men, it helps with testosterone levels. So there's actually a strong link between zinc and testosterone and progesterone production.

So zinc is probably the I would say it's probably the number one mineral we use in the office, where in terms of vitamins, I would say vitamin A and D would be maybe at the top of the top five list there for those. Okay, great. And I know that I am taking vitamin D, but the way I'm taking it is not how I ever would thought of it. It's a solution based tincture. And so something to be said about how we take these vitamins.

I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, well, vitamin A and D today, most of the D well, all the D you're going to get out at the store is vitamin D Three, which is the type that we use as humans. Interesting enough, pretty much all the pharmaceutical type vitamin D that you get from a medical doctor is actually D two. Vitamin D. Two. I've never quite understood why that is. Because only plants and fungi use a vitamin D two.

So if you're taking a little green type of gel cap from your medical doctor, and usually they're usually 25,000 or 50,000, I use a vitamin D that you would take every week, like once a week, like every Sunday night. They actually tend to be pretty toxic in people very, very quickly because you can't absorb vitamin D Two because you're not a plant or a fungus. So vitamin D Three is the one you would never be able to buy vitamin D two if you went to Whole Foods or some store, you only can get vitamin D three. So go figure that mystery out.

But in terms of vitamin A and D, yeah, since they're fat soluble vitamins, it is said I know there was a study I always tell people about that you absorb your vitamin D 54% better if you take your vitamin D with something that you're eating that contains fat. In other words, I'll tell patients to take their A and D, like, with their eggs for breakfast or dinner. Hopefully they're having some fat, whether that be butter or some steak or whatever it could be. I mean, it's not wrong to take it at another time, but you'll definitely absorb those better if you take them with fats.

And the other ones, really any other nutrient, it kind of depends if they're more whole, food based, or synthetic. There's a time and a place for both. And I always tell people that the big thing is you shouldn't get nauseous when you take supplements. I remember growing up, and I was always into nutrition, I'd, like, read something and take all these supplements, and I'd feel miserable for the next hour or half hour because you're all these pills in my belly.

That pretty much means you're taking too high of a dose or something or you're reacting to something, meaning you shouldn't be taking one of those. So that's something to be concerned about your supplements shouldn't make you nauseous. If they do even a little bit sometimes it's because you need to take them with food. But I think that's a good rule for people to understand. Like supplements should only improve some function of something. You shouldn't be sick for a period of time after you take them.

Yeah, that makes sense. And even on a personal note, I was on a lot of supplements and considered myself to be pretty healthy. But after working with Dr. Shuler, I'm not on any of those anymore. I didn't need to be. I've trained him well, haven't I? He seems like he's doing a good job over there. He is.

Well, speaking of trading, because we may have some practitioners actually listening today and it's my understanding that you do have some type of a training program for other practitioners. And so just wondering what exactly is involved in the training and who is it for sure.

Well, systems healthcare is basically like my version of applied kinesiology. It takes a bunch of general ply kinesiology principles that George Goodheart developed in the then I actually worked for almost 20 years with a good friend and doctor of mine named Dr. Wally Schmidt, who grew up next to Dr. George Goodheart back in the 70s. So he was like his young middle school, high school next door neighbor. So he not only learned from Dr. Goodheart, but then implemented and improved and furthered our profession on. So I had the honor of working with him for close to two decades.

So I use a lot of the techniques that he used and then of course my own over the last quarter century and basically coming up with what I call systems health care, which is understanding how systems of your body interact with one another and how your pancre we don't isolate anything. It's basically the gist of it. In other words, how your blood sugar is not just your pancreas, but it's how your liver and your brain can adjust your blood sugar and your adrenal glands are involved and how everything sort of is somewhat connected in your body.

But basically that being said, even though I talk a lot about general nutrition in terms of applied kinesiology, since we're in systems healthcare, since we're using manual muscle testing, really, that's kind of who takes my classes. Someone who is a hands on practitioner who is employing some types of manual therapy techniques in their office, which typically in the US. Is even though there's some dentists and some psychologists who use muscle testing, it's mostly chiropractors or osteopaths in Europe. This year I usually teach in Europe once a year. This year I'll be teaching in Italy. Last year I was teaching in Barcelona. In Paris? They're mostly osteopaths over there and some chiropractors too.

So it's people who have a basic understanding of manual muscle testing too, because that's kind of where we start off and how to use. That muscle testing with a different mindset and a different approach and therapies that I have developed or used other ideas for to implement into a natural healing type program.

Okay, yeah, that's great. Thank you for expanding upon that. And so if there's any chiropractors listening today or body workers that may be something that they could explore, great. Yes. Well, I'll tell you what. I know you have a lot of things you could share, but this has been a great overview and this has been extremely helpful for me and I'm hoping everybody else. So I just want to thank you so much for coming on today and sharing such valuable information.

Yes, thank you. And congratulations on the start of your podcast, by the way. You seem like a great host. Thank you, Steve. I'm getting there. You're my third interview. That's great. Awesome. So if you would like to know more about Dr. Gangemi's work, he has three websites and they will all be included in the description of this episode. And he has a website for health, fitness and life. A natural injury treatment and prevention for athletes site as well as his systems healthcare website. The Natural Healthcare Center in Chapel Hill. So remember, we do new episodes every week on Wednesday, and I look forward to having you join me then.