Episode 26: Interview with Kristin Mallon
Tune in to today's episode to learn the secrets of longevity for women: what does it mean? and how can we achieve It?
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Show Notes:
Part 1: Introduction and Hormonal Imbalance in Women
Introduction to the podcast and the guest, an expert on women's health
Discussion on hormonal imbalance, focusing on issues women face in their thirties and forties
The impact of hormonal imbalance on physical and mental well-being
Part 2: Importance of Sleep & Lifestyle Changes
Deep dive into how hormonal changes affect sleep quality
The need for around 90 minutes to two hours of deep sleep for women over 40
Discussion on chronotypes and how sleep needs can differ from person to person
Part 3: Preparing for Menopause and Conclusion
Steps women can take to prepare for menopause, such as baseline hormone testing and exercise
Recommendations for weight training, especially as women enter their forties
The limitations of the current healthcare system and the need for a more holistic approach
Closing thoughts and information on how to connect with the guest for more resources
Key Takeaways:
Hormonal Imbalance: Hormonal changes in women, especially during their thirties and forties, can have a significant impact on both physical and mental health. Symptoms can include anxiety, depression, and sleep disorders.
Importance of Sleep: Sleep plays a crucial role in hormonal and mental health. Women over 40 ideally need 90 minutes to two hours of deep sleep per night. However, this can vary based on individual needs and genetic markers.
Personalized Health Approach: The one-size-fits-all approach doesn't work when it comes to hormonal health. Tracking hormone levels and sleep can provide invaluable personalized data.
Preparation for Menopause: Women can take proactive steps such as hormone testing, weight training, and exercise routines to prepare for menopause. These steps can also mitigate symptoms and improve overall well-being.
Limitations of Current Healthcare: The healthcare system often falls short in diagnosing and treating women's health issues holistically. Early diagnosis and preventive measures are crucial for better outcomes.
Transcript:
Welcome back to The Better Than a Pill Today. I am so excited to have Kristen Mallon as a
guest with us today, and Kristen is a certified nurse midwife and a menopause specialist, and
today we're gonna be talking about longevity and how it works.
So welcome Kristen. Hi. Thanks Harvey. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be
here. I am excited too. So let's start off a little bit, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in
the work that you do. Yeah, so, I've been a midwife since 2006 and I was always in private
practice . I started in Brooklyn and I started really with a passion for working with women really
throughout their whole lifespan.
I really wanted to kind of, Work with a woman from their fertility, getting pregnant, delivering
babies, and then on through menopause and beyond. And I kind of noticed that once women
were kind of done with their reproductive longevity, they were really focused on their primary
longevity or their main longevity or their.
You know, their full longevity. And, that became like a really fun thing to kind of work on with
women, you know, and, and some women choose not to have children or don't have children for
various different reasons. And so, that was always a really interesting thing to kind of just work
on right from the get go, with all different types of women at all different times in life.
But it's definitely been something that I've focused on in the second half of my career. As like, it
kind of applies now to all of the clients that I work with, with now, and it's something that I think
as women kind of go through the transition of menopause, it becomes more poignant as they go
through that transition.
Absolutely. I know, I would, I'm interested, you know, and, and I'm sure all of our listeners are as
well. So tell me what exactly, how do you define longevity and how does it work? Yeah, so
longevity. I think as a group, people who practice longevity medicine I think are kind of
collectively coming to define it as an expansion of health span and an expansion of lifespan.
So it's this, not just living longer, but living. Better cuz nobody wants to have a longer life if that
means just spending, you know, another 10 years in a nursing home or disabled or another 10
years after a stroke or after some sort of immobility situation. So that's really what we're focused
on is, and a lot of times it's called the marginal decade or the marginal 15 years of life, the last.
10 to 15 years of our lives really making those. So where we can still sit on the floor, take our
overhead bag, and put it in an overhead bin, travel, go on a hike, play tennis, and do the things
that we love. So it's kind of like getting an extra 10 years of life really to still have the same
mobility and mental acuity that we have in our fifties and sixties at 90 or a hundred.
Yeah, that sounds good to me. Yeah, a hundred percent. Sign me up. Sign me a hundred
percent. And I like what you said, it's about the quality of that time too. Yeah. And so, so what
do you see, uh, or what are the keys to longevity? So if you ask me what I think the number one
thing is, I would say it's movement, exercise.
You know so much of what you are all about and I think that there's just no, if s are butts, no
way around this. We can talk about diet and supplements and molecules until we're blue in the
face, but. Movement, exercise stability, mobility is the number one thing when it comes to
longevity. So it's not really, you know, some, some doctors even say it's not really even worth
having a conversation if we don't get that set first.
That's really the foundation of all aspects of longevity. From there, I would say that what we put
into our bodies is probably number two. So that, that, there's a lot that goes into that. So not just
diet, but supplements, nutraceuticals, including hormones and hormone supplementation, what
we put on our skin.
The shampoos we use, the laundry we use, et cetera, things like that. So, Yeah, that, that totally
makes sense, and I love how movement is the number one pillar. Wow. Yes. Yeah. I mean, a
movement encompasses so many things, and I think movement can mean so many different
things to so many different people, and we're so, so different and we're so unique, and I
certainly don't think there's any one size fits all.
I don't think that it has to be, well, everyone has to do zone two and zone four and Pilates and
yoga and X and z and y. I think it can be as beautiful and unique as we all are, and can be as
beautiful and unique. And that's why I like to say movement as, as movement means to each of
us. Yes, I agree 100% exactly.
And it is such a unique facet and it's often I feel overlooked by doctors. They just assume it as
one big generic thing, exercise when there's just so much more involved even within that, you
know, realm of movement and so forth. Yeah, absolutely. And, I think I remember, I don't wanna
be misquoted and you know, fact checking will probably be difficult on it, but I remember
somebody once looked it up and said that exercise is like five times more effective than the
next.
Pill for certain things when it comes to, uh, cardiovascular prevention and, Alzheimer's and
dementia prevention and, and bone loss and osteoporosis prevention. And, and I would believe
that, I mean, I could, I could see how that could be true. So I, I just think that it's, There's even, I
think, a study going on now, and I can't remember what study it is.
I wish I had it in front of me, but, where exercise is meant to be, or movement is meant to be
the number one recommendation for all across the board, across all ailments. So, okay, well,
you have depression and anxiety. Okay, well, let's. Before we, before we even try cognitive
behavioral therapy, before we even try, you know, an S S R I or before we try any of the
traditional remedies, we're gonna try movement first.
And, okay, you have high blood pressure, we're gonna try movement. So I think that that's
gonna be a really fascinating study to see what the results of that study are. Oh wow. Absolutely.
Five times. That's really powerful too. And yeah. You know, and it really sits well with me
because I feel, you know, even in my own work that I do with people, that's the number one
place we start.
And I know not everybody sees it like that. So it just adds fuel to my fire. That's great. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. So what shortfalls did you see in women's healthcare, but particularly in those
middle ages that prompted you to do the work that you're doing? Yeah. So, I mean, where do
we start?
I mean, there's so many things. There's so many things that I think are needed in women's
healthcare. So Dr. Peter Atia, huge doctor in longevity medicine, probably one of the leading
doctors I think in our area. Certainly one that I look up to the most. And he talks a lot. He wrote a
book called Outlive.
He was on Oprah recently. He talks about Medicine 2.0 versus medicine 3.0. So Medicine 2.0 is
kind of the old way of doing things, how we've always done things, and it really focuses on sick
care. So you don't go to the doctor until you're sick and you go to the doctor every year. You're
supposed to go to the doctor every year.
A lot of us don't because like, and I understand why we don't, cause it's like, well, what's the
point? Like what am I getting out of it? If they're just waiting until I'm sick or they're waiting until
my blood values or my blood pressure, or my data, or my vital statistics are at a level where I'm
sick.
And they're not, they're not in, they're not helping me with the prevention range, and that's really
Medicine 2.0. What, what kind of, what Peter Attia describes and what his vision is, is he's like,
let's move to Medicine 3.0 where we're looking at someone's data and we're looking at their vital
statistics and we're looking at their, the information that's presented to us.
In terms of like all sorts of different things. So in terms of like for movement, like VO two max
and pulmonary function tests, and we're looking at their cardio lipid profile and we're looking at
micronutrient testing and even like gut microbiome testing and we're saying, okay, this person
isn't sick, but are these levels optimal?
So I think that that's a question that we're like, so FM Health, which is, you know, My company.
That's what we're asking now. So we're like, okay. Obviously, well, hopefully most women that
are coming to us aren't sick. Or if they're sick, they're just like on the very fringe of, of sick.
They're just starting to get sick.
So we're helping women optimize their health as opposed to treating sickness and treating
chronic disease, which is where Medicine 2.0 is today. I think also when you come to Women's
Health, Women's health has just been boxed into ob, G Y N. So OBGYNs have been, they have
been. They have had so much loaded on their plate.
It's amazing to me. I think like, and I'm so in awe of what, you know, I'm a certified nurse
midwife, and so my colleagues are all OB-GYNs. I'm amazed at what they have had to take on.
So they've had to become experts in. Childbirth. They've had to become experts in all the
surgeries that go along with childbirth.
They've had to become experts in gynecology and all the surgeries that go along with
gynecology. They've had to become experts in primary care because a lot of women use them
as primary care doctors. So now you're talking about not just what's going on like yeast
infections and UTIs and. But now upper respiratory infections and ear infections and you know,
the things that happen to us in any given year, most women are going to their OB GYNs for that,
or a lot of women do.
I wouldn't say most, but a lot of women do. They're also experts. They're also supposed to be
experts in menopause and endocrinology and breast experts, so you know, breast health. So I
think it's like I'm just in awe of what has been dumped on their plate. I feel like, as opposed to in
traditional medicine, you would never go to a cardiologist and say, okay, fix my endocrine
system and oh, by the way, fix my osteoporosis and also fix my.
You know, urogynecology issue. All of those subspecialties in medicine have been, have been
SD out, and I think we're starting to see this. We've done such a great job as a society and, and
I know there's work to be done on breast cancer, but we've done a really good job. I think we
have to. We should celebrate how far we've come with breast cancer and breast cancer
awareness.
I think a lot of us know the statistics of breast cancer. We kind of have a very good prognosis
now. You know, the survival rate is very, very high for breast cancer. Most of us know we should
go get a mammogram at 40. We know how to handle breast cancer and now we have breast
specialists that's a subspecialty of women's health.
And so what I'd love to see and, and what I think might be coming is I'd love to see the OB
GYNs subspecialty out. Obstetricians are obstetricians. They focus on pregnancy, childbirth,
and high risk pregnancy gynecologists or gynecologists. And you see a lot of this happening on
their own. You know, a lot of times you hear people like, oh, I don't do OB anymore.
I just do gynecology now. Like it's, they're, they're subspecialty on their own. And then I'd like to
see GYNs become menopause specialists, and I'd like to see them become a specialty in
hormone balancing for women. And the same way that we have breast specialists. So I think
that's kind of what. One of the FIEs, I guess you could say in women's health is that we've just
been like, ah, women's health, no big deal.
Like just women, no big deal. Like one doctor can handle all of these things, but really we need
multiple subspecialties to handle the intricacies and the complexities that go along with all of
these really complicated issues. I mean, Fibroids are very complicated. Endometriosis is very
complicated.
Ovarian cyst is very complicated. And most of the time you have GYNs who specialize. I mean, I
know a ton of GYNs who just do endometriosis and that's all they do. They just do robotic
endometriosis surgery. And that's really, I think, where we're moving to and I think we're heading
in the right direction.
But I think that's one of the things that's happened in women's health. That, that's kind of where
I see FEV has started to fill the hole and fill the gap of, we've kind of fit, fit into the niche of
hormone balancing and helping women with perimenopause, menopause, and getting their
hormones in line and, and what to do when that happens.
Yes. Wow. So a couple things. Could you say the name of the doctor one more time? Dr. Uh, is
it Attia? Yeah. Dr. Peter Attia, A t t i a. Yeah. And he. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, he, I think his, I
think his website is peterattiamd.com or peteratia.com and his book is called Outlive. Okay,
great. And then your company, tell us a little bit about the, the fem Fem and this is the, the
company that you founded.
Tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, so my co-founder, Michelle and I, So this really came
about because, so I was working in private practice in, New Jersey and, you know, my patients
were getting older, you know, They were kind of, you know, I started in 2006 and in 2006 my
patients were twenties, thirties, and forties.
And then, you know, every decade since then, they've gotten older and, you know, they, their
needs have changed and I've evolved with them. And as they kind of started to move into their
forties, fifties, and sixties, They just had different needs and you know, I kind of looked for
resources and I felt like I was looking for other colleagues to help me support them through the
different hormonal changes that I think happen to women each decade.
Cuz I think sometimes we think about, okay, well it's really just menopause, but. Really, every
decade a woman is going through hormonal shifts. So what happens from zero to 10 is a certain
hormonal shift and what happens from 10 to 20 and what happens from 20 to 30. And I think
women kind of, they know this because if you, if you're like, okay, how was your period in your
teen years versus how was it in your thirties?
They're like, oh yeah, totally different. Like, I totally know what you mean. Hormonally, I was
very different And, You know, I was looking for colleagues to kind of guide me, to guide my
patients, and there just weren't any, it was just like a desert of nobody knew what to do. And,
and I think there's a lot of reasons why.
And, and I'm happy to get into that too, as to why nobody knew what to do. But, and so I. I had
an old colleague of mine from my very first job, Dr. Michael Abraham's, Harvard trained. He's a
brilliant, brilliant doctor and he knew what to do and he had been working with women in, in
hormonal with hormonal shifts and hormonal changes using bioidenticals, using h r t, using
supplements, using herbs.
He had been working with midwives and naturopaths for a very long time. Very, really, really,
really brilliant guy. And. He started helping me and coaching me and educating me. And so then
we kind of started treating women together and he was like, you know, no one in the US is really
doing this. You have to look at European literature and you have to look at literature from
Australia and New Zealand.
And that's kind of how we started to. Kind of treat women that needed hormonal
supplementation, needed hormonal support, needed hormonal balancing for lots of different
things. Not just perimenopause and menopause, but P C O S and weight gain and premenstrual
syndrome. Lots of different things.
And that's why Michelle and I started FEM because there wasn't anything out there for women
like this. They're just. You know, ob-GYNs are, like I said in the beginning, so overloaded as it is.
Like they're so busy doing all of these different things that we're just dumping on them as a
society.
Like, okay, do all of these things, you know, handle all of these different types of medicine that
they just don't have the time to understand all the intricacies of hormone balancing as well. So
that's really why we got into it. Great. And that provides an additional tool and additional
information to help women uh, see where they are earlier before, let's say disease sets in.
Yeah, absolutely. And then also it helps women to, you know, Hormone balancing helps to
prevent a lot of, longer term complications. So, you know, when you do hormone balancing
properly in your thirties, it can actually prevent things like fibroids in the forties, and then when
you do hormone balancing in the forties, it can actually prevent cardiovascular and osteoporosis
in your sixties, et cetera.
So it's it, that's why hormone balancing and longevity go together so nicely and really well. So
it's a key component for longevity for women, obviously. Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's so many
benefits to hormone supplementation and hormone support in the forties and fifties for the
sixties, seventies and eighties, like primarily with cognition and Alzheimer's, cardiovascular and
bone loss prevention, like really significant health benefits.
And you, it's, it's a mixture it sounds like, of, also integrating in some natural modalities, natural
medicine in, in addition to, mainstream medicine tools. Am I, is that, is that correct? Yeah, well,
everybody's very different. And so it's really about, we call it hormone support. So we really, you
know, everybody can do that very differently, you know, some.
Some women need full hormone replacement therapy, and some women can do that with herbs
and, and nutraceuticals and, and everything in between. A lot of women we do find do best with
bioidenticals, but again, it's, it runs the whole gamut. And, you know, it's, it, it's kind of like this
double-edged sword, I think because.
You know, I get this, I get a question a lot about like, well, you're giving, you know, you're a
midwife and aren't you supposed to be natural and you're supposed to support natural childbirth
and natural aging and natural menopause. And, and yes, you know, to go through menopause
without any hormone support is natural, but, It's also natural to age and it's also natural to die.
And so like these supporting hormones is also a way to kind of ease that transition and kind of
like make it, kind of extend lifespan and extend health span to make it just kind of make life a
little bit better if that's what women want. You know? It's such, it's just an option. Sure. And I
would see, I wouldn't see why they wouldn't, right.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, to each, each woman, their own. Right, right. And, and you know, it's
interesting but, menopause, obviously you've touched on it affects our bones and, you know, so
we're looking at decreasing risk for osteopenia, osteoporosis, and also, mental health. Talk a
little bit about how, how this can help with, you know, cause menopause does affect our mental
health.
Correct? Yes. So I'm so glad you brought that up and gave me an opportunity to talk about it.
So, One of the things that I think as a society we don't really think about when it comes to
menopause specifically, is we don't really think about the four other main hormones. So there's
many, many, many hormones that are involved, many sex steroid hormones, I should say.
There's many more hormones, I mean, with insulin and thyroid hormones, but there's many,
many other sex steroid hormones that are involved in the perimenopause and menopause
progression that go down over time, not just estrogen, estrone and estriol, and. Those
hormones that are really affected are progesterone, D H E A and testosterone.
And those start to go down in the late thirties, and very specifically progesterone and
testosterone going down can have profound effects on sleep. And then when you're having
these profound effects on your sleep, really in your forties, and a lot of women don't realize that
this is happening to them because.
You know, women who don't track their sleep. So I use a sleep tracker every single night. So
like I, I know about it. I use the, OR Ring. I'm a huge data person in general, so I love data about
myself. But, women don't realize that they're losing deep sleep and that they're losing sleep until
they start to have symptoms.
And usually that's like years into the process where they've been losing sleep. And then once
they start to have symptoms, that's gonna affect. Their mental health usually, or their mood. And
then this is where we can get symptoms like rage, anxiety, depression, feelings of
hopelessness. We can even start to have new symptoms of OCD.
I mean, a lot of symptoms will start to come up in the forties, very specifically in this
perimenopausal time because of the loss of progesterone and testosterone and D H E A or, or a
combination thereof. And it's very different for every woman and. How it manifests is very
different for every woman, but a lot of it is related to the lack of deep sleep and the sleep loss.
And I think that there's so much that can be done to educate and prevent, just to kind of be
aware of that. To track sleep, to track hormone progression, to track hormone loss, pro
progression, and then to consider hormone support during this time can be really, really, really
effective and really helpful for mental health and mood stabilization.
Yes, of course, traditional therapies are great. You know, all the therapy modalities that we have,
all of the pharma pharmacologics that we have for mental health are wonderful. But it's also
great to consider hormone support for women in their thirties and forties that are going through
any type of mental health challenges during that time in their life.
Wow. That's powerful. And with the relation to sleep. So I track sleep and I'm just curious how
much, deep sleep does a woman over 40 need? Yeah. So this is a really great question and I. I
know that this is gonna sound really hard, but really 90 minutes would be ideal. So 90 minutes a
night, to two hours.
Yeah. Okay. And most women, a lot of women don't, a lot of women, like sometimes when they
come to me and they, they're tracking, they're getting like 30 minutes and they're scared and it's,
it's okay cuz it doesn't, like, I don't want women to think like, oh my gosh, I, you know, I'm
tracking. I've had some women come to me that are getting eight minutes of deep sleep and it
doesn't matter where you're starting because there are a million things that can be done and
there's a plethora of things that can be done.
So I don't like to. Put that like a huge lofty goal of like 90 minutes out there and, and make
everybody kind of nervous if they're getting way under that. But, I think that like tracking is the
best way to kind of, so you know what you're working with and then start to work in, the
different types of modalities to get the, that deep sleep up.
It will do wonders for not only hormonal health, but mental health, weight loss, and hair growth. I
mean, there's so many things that can come from getting the right amount of deep sleep. No,
that's great to hear because generally we think about, okay, we need six to eight hours, maybe
nine, but we never hear about the deep sleep component.
So I'm gonna start tracking that. Yeah. And everybody has different chronotypes and so there,
there could be, you know, there, there is a chronotype of four hours of total sleep and I think that
chronotype, I think the deep sleep marker is around 30 minutes. That's a very rare chronotype
that, that's a genetic, chronotype, uh, a gen, I'm sorry, genotype.
So, you know, there is variation within this and so it's definitely gene rough range, but that's
something that like, you know, we could evaluate FMG or you can get evaluated with someone
who, who understands how to look at genetics or genetic markers and can help you evaluate,
the different stages of sleep and to let you know, like, okay.
You know, okay, you're a six hour a night sleeper. Like you need six hours a night. Okay, well
that means you need 50 minutes of deep sleep, or that means that you need 45 minutes of
deep sleep. So working with someone who can read those, different markers and understand
how to help you, and really you wanna try to get as much deep sleep a night as possible really.
I see. And so there is the component of not everybody, there are people that are outliers that
only need four hours of sleep, is what you're saying? Yeah. Very, very rare. So I, I, you know, I
would say that it's, you're probably talking about like one in 5,000, I don't know, one in 10,000
people. So I don't wanna, that's why like, I never like to say like a one size fits all for anybody,
but, there definitely could be outliers in any given situation.
Definitely. But yeah, roughly it's, it's eight or nine hours. There are a few people that could go on
four, some people can go on six. Some people need 10 to 12. But that's kinda like the rough
range, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. So that, yeah, that, that makes sense. And so cuz it, again,
sleep is individualized.
And then you mentioned there's also the genetic. Component to that. Yep. Yeah, there's, there's
genetic, there's certain genetic markers where people need less sleep and more sleep too. So
what else do you think that women can do to prepare for, for menopause and optimize the
overall transition? If you had to give some simple things that they could do starting today.
Yeah. So, I think it's different for each decade, but if someone's in their thirties, let's say, I think
it's great to get a baseline hormone testing to know where their hormones naturally fall at both
stages in the menstrual cycle. So, a woman who's still ovulating and still having menstrual
cycles would have, you know, in, there's the luteal phase and the follicular phase of the
menstrual cycle.
So the first half of the menstrual cycle and the second half of the menstrual cycle. So it's good to
get hormones done during the first half and hormones done during the second half of the
menstrual cycle to kind of see where the hormones naturally fall. Even if a woman doesn't have
a uterus, she's still, and, and she has ovaries, she's still ovulating.
And so it's good to kind of track those hormones in the different parts of the menstrual cycle to
know, or the ovulatory cycle to know. What's normal for her and how she kind of feels normally
in her thirties, the same thing in the forties, to kind of have that data. So that's a great thing to
know.
Secondly, it's great to, as the decades go up, so like I said, I really think about the women
hormonally by decades. So in the thirties, you know, it's good to kind of start to work on building
muscle mass and then that becomes more important in the forties. So, We usually need to
increase the amount of weights we do.
So, you know, when you're in your thirties, you can usually get away with lower weights in terms
of weight training and forties, we wanna kind of increase the weights we do to put on more
muscle mass because, muscle mass will help us to burn more glucose and help us with insulin
resistance will help to fight off lower abdominal weight gain.
That kind of, you know, extra weight gain that happens around the mid abdomen, as we get into
our mid forties and late forties. It's great to establish an exercise routine or find an exercise that
we enjoy and that we like and establish good eating habits, and then continue to track your
hormones on a yearly basis in your forties to know when you might need to add in hormone
support.
I see. Yeah, that totally makes sense. And again, we have the movement, movement piece in
there as a key component to that. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, no, this is, this is great. And I think the
work that you're doing is amazing. It's awesome. And we need more of this out there, you
know? You know, like when we started off, you know, a lot of times people just don't know what
is available to them and it's too late because, like you've described, and I've even experienced
myself, is that the medical system today is overwhelmed and they're not able to get all their
needs met, nor do they know that there could be other ways to test for things.
And so, you know, I hear this all the time. I was. You know, talking to her neighbor last night, I
may even have her on the podcast eventually, but just an example, an extreme story is she's
been going to the doctor for three years, not feeling well. And all, all they say is, you know, your
blood lets every blood test come back normal.
Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Until it got so bad and finally the diagnosis of ovarian
cancer, you know, it had to get to that point and, you know, that could have been prevented
earlier. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sitting here. Thinking to myself, you know? Wow. You know, so
yeah, something has to be done and, and I think, what you're saying about things are moving in
that direction and you are also with your company in alignment with that.
So this has been great. And, I thank you so much for coming on here today. I, I think everything
you shared has been wonderful, and thank you so much for sharing all of your knowledge with
us. Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. It's been a pleasure and for all of you listening
today, if you want to learn more about Kristen's work, I'll be including the link to her website as
well as all of her social links in the episode.
And remember, we do new episodes every week on Wednesday, and I look forward to having
you join me then.
